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Thief Rogue Actually AMAZING❗️ D&D 5e Deep Dive 💥 Explosive, Underrated Potential at Level 3
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Sep 27, 2022
Follow along with my article: https://www.flutesloot.com/thief-rogue-subclass-dnd-5e-deep-dive/?utm_source=youtube One of D&D 5e’s least-picked subclasses is the Thief Rogue. I want to show readers that this subclass is a gem that should be heavily considered to play. Thieves need a few details to be clarified with a DM ahead of time, but circumstances can make Thieves into some of the best Rogues for players to enjoy. ⏰Time Stamps: 00:00 The price is right 00:35 Not just a thief 01:00 Fast Hands (3) 02:30 Improvised weapon crash course 04:17 Thief improvised weapon tactics 06:05 Best items for Fast Hands 11:59 Alchemy to save money 12:30 Second-Story Work (3) 13:02 Supreme Sneak (9) 13:28 Use Magic Device (13) 16:08 Compatible magic items 18:06 Thief's Reflexes (17) 19:22 Tactics, races, and feats for Thief Rogues 20:53 DPR (Damage per round calculations) 24:45 Multiclass Artificer utility
View Video Transcript
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Which D&D 5th edition subclass opens you up to new game mechanics that normally don't get used
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very much because they're not great and can actually have impressive DPR damage per round
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at level 3 with no feats? It's the Thief Rogue, believe it or not, and I'm going to give you a
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deep dive into just how cool this subclass is and why you should try it sometime today on Flute's Loot
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As usual, there is an article accompanying this video. I have all the information there for you
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on Flutesloot.com that is in this video, plus more, so be sure to check that out and bookmark it
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Now, in the past, I've gone on record giving the subclass rating for the Thief Rogue a 5 out of 5
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A few of my friends said, that's a bold move, Jordan. I don't know about that, but I'm sticking to my guns. First of all, I want to kind of get away from the idea of Thief, because most people
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think Thief and they just want to steal stuff. You could be a Thief who is an archaeologist
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a researcher, an alchemist. And yes, I think the thief feels more like an alchemist than the
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alchemist artificer does. I want to get right to the fast hands at level three, because to me
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this is the most important feature of the subclass. Sure, it does allow you to do sleight of hand
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and other things as a bonus action, but the main thing I want to focus on is the use an object
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action as a bonus action. So what is the use an object action? Use an object means if there is a
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non-magical item that says it requires an action to use an effect with that item, then you use the
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use an object action. Sometimes the description of that item says you use an action to make an
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improvised attack with that item. So use an object can actually be a method of making an attack
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Most people don't understand that. They don't understand improvised weapon rules and they don't
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really look at the adventuring gear in the player's handbook and the dungeon master's guide that can
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utilize this fast hands feature. The bottom line is you can make a bonus action attack if you have
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the right items that say you use an action to activate them and part of that activation is
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making an improvised weapon attack. Or even if it doesn't require an improvised weapon attack
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it just does an area of effect damage. Quick honorable mention though to sleight of hand
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if a spellcaster hasn't drawn their spellcasting focus or something first and you can get up to
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them and take it quickly, you could make that spellcaster almost useless in battle. So keep
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that in mind, that could be fun. So there's two kinds of improvised weapon attacks, melee and
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ranged. The DM can rule on either melee or ranged improvised attacks that they resemble a weapon
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and like an actual weapon enough to treat it as that weapon. For the sake of this information
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though I'm going to assume that the DM has not made that ruling and we're just using the default
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1d4 for improvised weapon attacks. So if you hit someone with an improvised weapon it does 1d4
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damage plus strength if it's a melee attack or if it's a ranged attack you use dex. I actually had
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this wrong because I thought anytime you throw something it's a default strength based attack
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like strength is your modifier for it, your accuracy and your damage. But really, that only applies to weapons with the throne property
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So in other words, if you throw an alchemist fire, unless your DM rules that that vial, that flask
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resembles a weapon with the throne property, your ranged attack is made with dexterity
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Because it is a ranged attack, we are qualified to deal sneak attack damage
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when you throw a vial of acid at somebody. You might wonder if Alchemist's Fire is a magical item
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It is not. Things like healing potions are magical. So you can't bonus action drink a potion as a thief rogue
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Potions count as magical items. So even though I'm explaining this all to you
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your DM probably is not going to be ready for these rules specifically, or it's going to be kind of fuzzy for them because it doesn't come up a lot
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So make sure you say, hey, DM, I want to play a thief rogue, and I want to be able to use improvised weapon attacks with fast hands
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based on the use an object action. Can we talk about that and make sure that we're on the same page
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ask your DM because it's going to come up a lot with this thief rogue. Another point about improvised weapons is you by default do not have proficiency with them
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So you will be less accurate when you use them. A way to gain proficiency with improvised weapons is to take the tavern brawler feat
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I never thought I would consider taking this feat, but on this thief rogue, there's been some calculations I've ran where I said
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yeah, this seems to make sense to me. I'm going to go with tavern brawler to be more accurate with my improvised weapons
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Is it better than taking feats like Lucky? I don't really care. I want to play a thief rogue and be as good at using these improvised weapons as I can
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The best part is you don't have to take it. It's just that's an interesting feat that came up where it actually is useful
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One downside to using your improvised weapons is that their default range for any improvised ranged weapon is 20-60
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So anything beyond 20 feet, you're going to have disadvantage. That's really bad as a rogue
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You want to have normal or advantage for sneak attack. so you're probably going to be staying within 20 feet of your enemies which is going to make you
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a pretty solid midliner some people say the midline doesn't exist in dnd 5th edition with
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this kind of character i would absolutely embrace that i'm going to be staying not like 60 feet away
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but more like 20 feet away you can also do a build where you do melee weapon attacks but before you
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move in you throw your improvised weapon with your fast hands and quick reminder it's not like you
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can just do any improvised weapon attack with your fast hands it has to be using the use an object
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action. Just a quick reminder. So anyway, you can still have fun being a melee rogue with this kind
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of build. The way I would probably play it is with some kind of crossbow, maybe a heavy crossbow by
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using the proficiency switching out from Tasha's where I could take a martial weapon that the rogue
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gets like long sword and say, I'd rather be proficient with a heavy crossbow. So you can deal
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a D10 with that. And then after the attack, you use your hand to toss one of your use an object
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improvised weapon attacks, but then you can also move back. So you could be moving up close to make
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your attacks and then move back so that they are more than 30 feet away from you and they'd have to
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waste movement to get to you by dashing a lot of creatures would. So what are the actual items we
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are going to be using as a thief rogue? I went through every mundane item I could including on
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D&D Beyond and went for the official ones particularly from the player's handbook and
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the dungeon master guide with a few other fringe ones but I was surprised that there were some really good options just from the player handbook and the dungeon master guide So up first on my list is Grenades So the Dungeon Master Guide has these kinds of grenade items There are Smoke Grenades Fragmentation Grenades and Tangler Grenades
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Smoke Grenades give you a very large area of smoke cover, like a fog cloud
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So the area becomes heavily obscured. That can be really useful in a pinch to make an escape, or limit the ranged attacks of enemies
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or the targeted effects of a spellcaster where they have to see where they're casting or the person they're casting on
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So smoke can be very useful for you. Fragmentation is the exploding grenade. And oftentimes if you
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have these, you want to keep in mind and not forget them because they are like a mini fireball
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So if you're throwing these at level three, if you got your hands on some, you're dealing 5d6
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with a set DC of 15, which is pretty high for level three. That's one of the pros and cons of
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using items in this way is they're not based on your proficiency in making them or anything. They
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just have a set DC according to the books. They're usually 10 or 15 or something in between. So the
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15s, really great. The 10s, less reliable. Another point about these grenades is the DMG doesn't give
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proposed costs for the DM to use for them. So yeah, definitely talk to the dungeon master and
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say, how much are these going to cost? Am I going to have the chance to get them? Or are you against
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using them because they break your fantasy world? And then say, pretty please. And then the Tangler
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grenade is from Dungeon of the Mad Mage, which is basically a web type effect, like the web spell
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where it's going to restrain creatures. And then if they fail, they have to use their action to make
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a DC 20 strength athletics check or apply a gallon of alcohol to dissolve the webbing
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which is a pretty nasty effect. And how many people have a gallon of alcohol on them
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And I know some of you are like, my dwarf sure does. And I'm sure they do. But that can be a pretty nasty control effect to lock down a bunch of enemies
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There's also an item that's actually called a bomb, just a bomb. And it's smaller than the fragmentation grenade
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It only does 3d6 fire damage and it's all or nothing. So it's save for no damage or you take the 3d6 fire damage and the DC is 12 deck save
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So it's not that great. Then we have Alchemist's Fire and Alchemist's Doom
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which is like a greater Alchemist's Fire, which came to us recently in Strixhaven Curriculum of Chaos
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So again, make sure your DM is even going to have that item in the game. Alchemist's Fire and Alchemist's Doom are based on lighting someone on fire
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and then on their turns, they keep taking fire until they or someone else puts out the flames
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If you want to figure out how this interacts with improvised weapon damage and the overtime damage
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there is a head-spinning tweet from Jeremy Crawford about how he would resolve Alchemist's Fire damage
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when it's used as an improvised weapon attack, and people were saying, well, do you get the dex to the damage
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each time the fire burns them, or just when it hits? The way I read it, and think of the rules
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is that you would deal damage of just a d4, because that's the default improvised weapon attack damage
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plus your dex when you hit with the alchemist's fire. Then, on each turn, it just does 1d10 fire damage each turn
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It doesn't do 1d4 plus your dex. Next up is a dynamite stick, which is fun, because the more dynamite sticks together
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where it's a dc12 dex save, to take 3d6 bludgeoning damage but you can put additional ones on to do a maximum of 10d6 damage
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with it and you can do a delayed fuse if you don't want to make them blow up right away so it's kind
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of interesting that could be a fun item if you want to set a trap for a bunch of guys that are
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chasing you or lure a few enemies to come through a doorway and try to time it just right for the
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dynamite going off you could have really fun doing an ambush that way we've got acid vials so these
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do 2d6 acid damage when you hit with them. So it's like a great sword plus your dexterity and damage
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What I like about acid is that if you get something like an alchemy jug, which artificers easily can
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at just level two, you can keep supplying yourself with acid. So even though it usually costs you a
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pretty penny to keep making acid flasks to throw at people, that's the downside, you know, you're a
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pay to win rogue is what I call it because you spend so much money doing your attacks. The alchemy
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jug allows you to keep making flasks of acid so you don't have to keep going to stores and asking
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for acid and buying acid buying acid you could just supply your own you can drop ball bearings
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on the ground those little beads of metal that can make people slip around you could also throw
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caltrops on the ground enemies are forced to stop moving when they fail that save so they step on it
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and go yow like tom and jerry style and they have to stop there and also after they step on the
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caltrops and they're stopped they actually are going to be slower their movement is slowed for
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a while. So, Caltrops are really useful. I recently played on Tabletop Bob's channel, and I got to use
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Caltrops on a shark that was trying to jump up onto the shore after me, and so the Caltrop stopped it
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and that was super funny. Holy Water is another item that you could throw as a bonus action to do
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2d6 radiant damage to the right creatures, like fiends or undead, so those are nice to keep around
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Oil Flask. This is another one that alchemy jugs could just magically supply you with over and over
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again, so you always have oil on tap. Though, oil is one of the cheapest options for a thief, so oil
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is one I want you to remember. It doesn't deal anything but the default D4 of damage
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when you hit with it. But what's fun about oil, and also confusing about it
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is once you hit someone with oil, if they get hit with fire damage
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they take five extra fire damage, just a flat bonus, which is awesome. But it's unclear to me
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and I haven't found an official ruling, there's no errata or anything, to say how many times does the oil
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cause fire damage to go up by five. If someone hits him with a scorching ray
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and hits him three times, each one dealing fire damage, do they each do plus 5 damage? If you oil and then you alchemist's
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fire, does each tick of the alchemist's fire do 1d4 plus 5 from the oil, or is it just 1d4 at
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plus 5 one time, and then after that not? And last of my list of go-tos is the healer's kit
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This is great because you can stabilize an ally as a bonus action with your healer's kit. You
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can also take the healer feat to turn it into healing. The thief actually makes an excellent
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Combat Medic. I spoke about the alchemy jug magic item earlier, but you could also get proficiency
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with alchemist supplies. There are a few ways you could do that, and in doing so, you could use rules
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from Xanathar's Guide to Everything that makes it so you can do some checks to actually make your
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own alchemist's fire and other items in exchange for gold. It's not as good as having an alchemy
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jug, which could give you acid and oil for free, but if you wanted to make things like alchemist's
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fire and have an alchemy jug for the other stuff, then alchemist supplies would be smart to have
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and it would make it cheaper for you to craft those sorts of things, and you wouldn't have to go to stores to buy out everything and get marked as a terrorist by the government. So second story
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work at level three makes it so you can jump better and you can climb better, which is actually
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really useful. If you can climb up even just 10 feet above your enemies to lob bombs and shoot
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crossbow bolts at them then you are in the clear and you going to be able to do your rogue stuff really well As you level up as a rogue and you gain the ability to take no damage potentially from deck saves in area of effects you could light dynamite like right where you are have it
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explode and kill all the goblins around you while you sit there and take no damage, which I think is
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hilarious. And then when you get to level nine with Supreme Sneak, as long as you are moving
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half your speed, you can gain advantage on stealth checks. The way most games go, this would end up
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being a default advantage on your stealth checks because usually when you're sneaking up on people
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it's pretty assumed that you're moving slowly and carefully. In combat if you put down a smoke
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screen so people can't see you and you just move half speed to hide they won't know where you are
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and you can make a great escape. So going back to level 13 the thief got use magic object. This
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allows you to ignore the following requirements of using magic items which I take to also mean
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even if that's a requirement for attunement. You can ignore it. Class, race, and level. Now, I think
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that's interesting because I can tell they made the Thief Rogue early in their design of 5th
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edition. They scrapped some ideas that didn't really get updated in the Thief because there
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aren't really magic items that require a certain level. Really, you can pretty much ignore class
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and race. Race comes up seldomly. Class comes up a lot. One downside caveat to this is if you're an
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arcane trickster you already are a spellcaster which would qualify you for a lot of magic items
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another argument to be made here is that if you find a magic item that is like baked into the
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magic item made for another member of your party they're probably not going to give it to you but
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everyone's limited by attunement slots and you might actually have more room to cast spells than
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they do so if you find a wand that your wizard could use your wizard can already cast spells
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during combat but you could double the party's spellcasting output by having you hold the wand
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So your wizard can cast whatever spells they have, and then you use Wand of Web to web everybody
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So you're actually improving the options of you yourself, but also of the party in general
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because all of a sudden you can lay down some magical effects that would normally be unavailable to someone of your skill set
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So this was an interesting one to research because I had to look and see what are all the magic items in the Dungeon Master's Guide
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and Tasha's Cauldron of Everything that have requirements based on level, none of those, race, some of those
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and class, lots of those. Now, a lot of the ones that require a certain class are based on spell
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casting. So there's a problem here. You don't have an inherent spell save DC or spell attack
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modifier. So items that say requires attunement by a wizard, and then in the description says
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use your spell save DC when you do this effect or cast this spell with this item, you don't have one
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Again, fifth edition really didn't hash out the thief rogue properly. I still think the thief
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rogue is great, but obviously they messed up in the way they design things. I recommend asking your
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DM when you get those sort of items to choose like a default pseudo spell casting ability
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like maybe use your charisma or your intelligence as if you were a spellcaster or to set a default
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DC for those items, maybe 15 if it's a pretty good item or whatever, instead of using your spell
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save DC and then you just don't have one and it doesn't make sense because rules is written. It
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doesn't make sense. By the way, if you go to the article again that I link in the description
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I have spreadsheets that go over all these items. So you can have a spreadsheet that goes over all of them with their descriptions
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their links to D&D Beyond and everything. Go to my article and then find the link where it says download this spreadsheet and you'll be good
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So here are some magic items that you technically could use, but there may be some problems you got to talk with your DM
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So magic staffs, staff of fire, frost, the adder, healing, power, the magi, swarming insects
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the woodlands, the python. Those are all magic staff of those things
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These are great staffs for you to get, and it gives you some interesting magic abilities that you don't have to use spell slots for
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You can just have it like a gun in your pocket to cast, you know, Kona Cold on someone all of a sudden
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They're not going to see that coming from the rogue who looks like they don't have a magic bone in their body
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And then there's Rods of Resurrection and Rod of the Pact Keeper. So you could bring people back from the dead
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wand of binding fireballs lightning bolts paralysis polymorph web wand of wonder and
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wand of the warm age so some of those could be really useful for you you know you can start
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dropping fireballs i mean it's at level 13 so it's not a huge deal but web is going to be pretty
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useful a lot of time polymorph fantastic option to have up your sleeve and then here's some other
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magic items that you could get some use out of that would normally be unavailable to you
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Number one, Holy Avenger and Rapier is one option for the kind of Holy Avenger you get
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So that's great for sneak attack. Then there's Instrument of the Bards, Robe of the Arch Magi, Arch Magi
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I never, I always get those wrong. A Moonblade, an all-purpose tool, which sounds like a mundane item, but it's a magical artificer tool
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Cauldron of Rebirth, Guardian Emblem, Liar of Building, Nature's Mantle, Reveler's Concertina
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and a lot of these are the new Tasha's ones that are spellcaster specific that wouldn't be great
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for you but they have usually like one added effect that could be useful to you if no one else wants
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it. Necklace of Prayer Beads, Tome of the Stilled Tongue, Whelm, Alchemical Compendium
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Astromancy Archive, Atlas of Endless Horizons, Bell Branch, Crystalline Chronicle, Devotees Sensor, Libram of Souls and Flesh, and Moonsickle. At level 17 you get Thief's Reflexes. You can take
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two turns during the first round of combat. Again, it's only the first round of combat
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but I've noticed a lot of players put a lot of weight on that first round of combat. And this
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was evident when I did a poll where I asked people what they thought without feats, what the best
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build is at level three. And one of the suggestions I gave was halfling thief. There was also an
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option for a bug bear, which is a very hot topic right now because of the changes and buffs that it
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got a bug bear gloom stalker. And I really think people put too much weight on that first round of
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combat, bringing that up because this also is just first round of combat. So keep that in mind
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but having two turns is awesome so it's like you get a free action surge at the first round of every
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combat but it's at two different times in the round funny enough when you can do two turns in
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the first round of combat it gives you incentive if someone starts initiative with you that you
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could use your cunning action to dash and just get out of there and disengage from the fight entirely
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and then when the dm eventually has you like go engage those people again if they have you roll
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initiative again then you would get two turns again and so that super interesting and fun but i think some dms would find it very gamey and they wouldn have you roll initiative again if you just like ran away for a
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few rounds and then came back. Ask your DM once again. All right, so that's the Thief Rogues kit
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its abilities wrapped up for you. Now let's get into combat tactics for Thief Rogues. I mentioned
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earlier that you can go melee, maybe you want to use some booming blade, and that might require you
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to take like the gunner feat, for example, so you don't have disadvantage to throw acid on someone
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which is a ranged attack right next to them, so you would have disadvantage. And then if your DM is letting you use dynamite and grenades
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maybe they also would let you use firearms, so learning the gunner feat, because then you could get a firearm
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shoot at someone like a musket or something, and then you could lob your asset at them as well
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If you do want to get Booming Blade, you could go for High Elf, because that gives you, as a race
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a wizard cantrip. Booming Blade is a great one. You could also go for the Ritual Caster feat
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to eventually, after level five, get to cast Phantom Steed, so that you can have a mount in combat, so you can freely move away from enemies
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So you could go up to do those melee attacks while still hit and run, toss Alchemist's fire over your shoulder at them
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and keep your distance without having to use your bonus action cunning action to disengage
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because your mount takes care of that for you. Plus, it's a really fast horse. I mentioned earlier that without some of those tools
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you'll probably be standing about 20 feet away and using range attacks with a crossbow, and then lobbing an item with your bonus action
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I mentioned earlier that feats aren't really a big deal for this subclass. that opens you up to use pretty much any race you want because you don't have to be like oh i'm
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going to be variant human because we're only playing to level five and so i need to get a feat to make my build come online that sort of stuff doesn't really matter there's a lot of
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feats you can take you could take piercer i mentioned tavern brawler you could do elven
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accuracy or if you're an elf and you think you're going to have ways to get advantage without using
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steady aim you don't have to pick a certain lineage to make the thief rogue viable you just pick the one that you think sounds fun and probably won't bog down your action economy
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Now let's talk about damage per round. So if you watched my video about the Beast Barbarian where I did a deep dive on that one, I used the Treant Monk damage baseline to determine if the damage per round is viable, good, or great, or bad. And so if you can do more than that baseline, you know you're in good shape, especially if you beat it by more than 50%, your damage is looking really good
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So I mentioned at level three, without feats, you probably are one of the biggest DPR subclasses in the game because you can just get a free bonus action attack
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Most classes have to get a feat or their subclasses have to be a certain type and then they get like a really limited bonus action and maybe it comes later
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But you at level three get a bonus action you can use that can make an attack with the use an object if it's something like acid or alchemist's fire
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So at levels 3 and 4, before the Hexblade's baseline gets its extra Eldritch Blast at level 5, when the Catrips just get better automatically
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you are more than double the DPR, and all you need to do is focus on Dex and use Acid and a Heavy Crossbow
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You don't have to have proficiency in Acid, but you might just take a feat that boosts your Dex at level 4
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which might be like a piercer feat or something, but it's not totally necessary, and you're double the baseline at levels three and four after that you're beating it by like 28 26
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depending on if you have advantage or you're attacking normally and then you get a boost
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later on as your sneak attack goes up but then eldritch blast gets another blast at level 11 so
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you fall back again but basically you can always beat the baseline at least a little bit at higher
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levels you're only beating it by like 10 20 which isn't great but at lower levels absolutely you are
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beating that warlock baseline and you're doing great damage by just using a heavy crossbow
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and acid if your dm is letting you use a frag grenade which again is like a mini fireball
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at level three if you just get two enemies in your fragmentation 20 foot radius or whatever it is
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just two enemies and this does account for the chance they have to pass the saving throw based
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on average monster deck saves you would be doing sometimes triple sometimes quadruple and if you
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would have had disadvantage on an attack six times the baseline so you beat the baseline by 600
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if you would have disadvantage on attacks and so would the warlock because throwing a fragmentation
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grenade doesn't care if you have disadvantage if you would attack normally you're still beating the
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baseline by 406 291 if you would have had advantage and 264 if you would have had elven accuracy
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advantage so that's crazy damage at level three and level four it drops off just a little bit but
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it's still very high and then the level five again the eldritch blast baseline does start to pick up
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but you're still more than double it until about level like 11 i think it is and then it tapers
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off but yeah it's still it's 5d6 with a dex save and so monsters saves are going up as you level up
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and 5d6 is less and less relevant so yeah that goes down but for a long time you just have this
23:53
fireball mini fireball type effect that you could lob at enemies and your damage could be really
23:59
good. And if you wanted, you could use your action and your bonus action to throw two fragmentation
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grenades and do two bomb effects, which could be massive damage. And again, my calculations are
24:09
only getting two enemies in the blast area. You're doing way more if you hit more of them. And
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spellcasters are limited by their spell slots. You're only limited by how many you have in your pocket. Like you can only cast so many fireballs at level five, even though you have fireball
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But you, if you have five fragmentation grenades in your pocket, then you are not limited by spell
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lots. So in my article, I gave a few screenshots of my Excel spreadsheets where I do damage
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calculations based on a few different things, including doing a melee build, which is the last
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one I haven't covered yet. But basically, if you're doing like booming blade plus fragmentation
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grenade, you're getting some pretty monster damage too. And the booming blade will scale
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a little bit more than your heavy crossbow. Then multi-classing as a thief rogue, the main one that
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comes to my mind is artificer because you can get so much for just two levels of artificer. And at
24:52
level two with those infusions, you can also make your own alchemy jug. So you can have a lot of fun
24:56
with an alchemy jug. Who knew alchemy jugs would be so useful? The Thief Rogue did. And seriously
25:00
get down in the comments and let me know what you thought of this video because I really put my heart
25:04
and soul into trying to defend the Thief Rogue and make people like it, even in the modern D&D
25:08
5th edition world almost 10 years after it came out. And don't miss the deep dive I did on the
25:13
Barbarian Path of the Beast subclass that I also enjoy very much and it has a lot of untapped
25:17
potential that people haven't considered. And I'll see you in the next video. Have a good adventure this weekend. Bye
#Hacking & Cracking
#Roleplaying Games
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